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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 9:56 pm 
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Posts: 45
TenksYuo wrote:
Verbal abuse is considered a form of battery. Trolling is part of Cyber bullying, which is in fact a crime.


(CITATION NEEDED)

Fred Phelps and his family and their continued protection under the First Amendment might disagree with you.

If you change clothes smack in front of your living room window and someone strolling down the street sees you, you cannot fault them for being on the street. You should have closed the blinds.

If you publicly brag on Facebook that you've committed a crime, and you're arrested for it or lose your job, you cannot fault the audience for paying attention. You should have set your privacy settings.

If you do something in a public chat room that you don't want getting out, you can't fault those who looked to see and saw what you did. You should have shut the blinds/set the privacy/select a private room.

I understand the concern about meeting and interacting with new people--that's what open rooms are for; to do so. When you go out shopping, you dress differently than you might, laying in bed. When you go out for a job interview, you dress differently than you might for either of the others. Some folks don't seem to grasp that just because they're sitting in front of their computer doesn't mean that they're not in a social interaction, and the onus is on the individual, not society, to adjust. If I am a nudist, I still have to put on clothes to go to the mall. If I'm an asshole and I want to play pretend games with other people on the interwebs, I need to act like someboy--it's not on everyone else to just accept me blindly, freely, because I'm such a damn special snowflake.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:07 pm
Posts: 5
I'm guessing those that have stated that they ST games on the this chat have also run games on a real table top face to face with their players before. Now in such an environment when you are running a live game please tell me; do you have someone taking notes of exactly what each and every player says during the game?

My guess is probably not because that would be a tremendous task to take on. Even if each person were to write down what they say through out the course of one night of gaming. Not to mention the amount of distraction it would cause to create such notes the game would not flow at all. Why should this chat be any different from a real table top environment? The only real difference between a live game and a game on the chat is that we cannot hear the inflection in each others voice when we speak/type.

I know many of the people that play on this chat remember White Wolfs old Java chats. And guess what, those chats did not have a save button and we all did just fine with out it.

Please forgive me as I mean no offense, but it sounds like the people asking for the return of the save button are in all respects lazy and do not care about the games they run. Why else would you need an exact manuscript of what was said through out the course of a night of gaming? Any good ST worth their salt would be taking notes (mentally or physically) where needed to remember important key points/events/conversations that occurred during the gaming session.

That being said I would love to see the save button come back when the admin deems it time and/or the concerns that caused its removal resolved.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:10 pm
Posts: 2
BlackCat wrote:
This is in the end Mikes chat, he has complete control over what is and is not available to the players, that said, as a player and an ST, the save chat log was an asset and benefit to all and I would love to see its return.
If you are in a private scene that you don't want people seeing or joining, that's what the " create a room " was for, Mike gave us the ability to both lock them ~and~ hide them.



I'd like to point out that in another one of the Admin's own post he posted this:

Quote:
Also, please realize that the chat software itself is not something that I created. So there are a lot of bugs that are beyond me to fix.

http://unmodchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=275

I know some of us here are good at back end stuff for databases and other forms of mass communications in this world. Some of us have even done the coding for the lovely character sheets that this chat houses. I'm wondering if this save button issue is such a big issue why hasn't anyone before now even stepped up to help?

He even has a message on the main site about asking for help.

Quote:
If you find any bugs, would like to request any features, and especially if you know even basic HTML and are willing to help me develop character sheets, please contact me!


I'm seeing that in this whole thing that the community as a whole is being lazy. The save log button was convient, yes, but in the end it only did things that a person could do if they put for a bit of effort. The only feature about it I miss would indeed be the catching of a last private message that vanished after a person logged out, or the lack of line bug when you click a link. Even still the save button was an end all be all cure of the lines. Even sending it in a private message would bug it into the main room and still give you lines. I've even gotten the line bug from clicking it in the save log.

I really do see this whole forum thread degrading to inflamitory finger pointing instead of to what the point was. The whole point of losing the save feature was because it makes the enviorment of the chat something that is uncomfortable for people, which is what the chat was not supposed to be in the beginning. It was supposed to be a place where people of like minds could come together collectively and role play out a game that we all enjoy and love. It's rather sad that people in the world, on the chat, and in life have to stoop to low levels of self gratification by saving chat logs and posting them in the entryway for everyone to see. Humiliating people for what they play, how they play, and who they play with. I really, really, really thought that I had gotten out of high school when I graduated.

As to the main reason of this entire thread wasn't to start a bitch fest but to pose reasons on why the save button was a good idea or a bad idea. The fact is people did abuse the button. From these post I'm seeing more then a few people knew it was going on. And knew WHO was doing it. Some of you are friends with each other. We all claim to be grown up here. My question to those who knew it was going on and knew which one of your friends were doing it, why didn't you have a talk with them before this whole situation became this extreme?

I'm all for the old saying "one bad apple ruins the bunch", it's how people learn that they did something wrong. I know for a damn fact if I broke one of my toys, my parents weren't going to run out the next day and buy me a new one cause I whined and cried. I'd have to deal with my own mistake and live with the fact I broke my toy. It happened when I was in school. One person did something wrong we all got punished for it.

As Tenks has said:
TenksYuo wrote:
Verbal abuse is considered a form of battery. Trolling is part of Cyber bullying, which is in fact a crime.


Here are a few Wiki's go to and read. Cyber bullying is a real thing. I'm hoping that you all sit there and read and realize that what you say does have an effect on people. I'm also really hoping that you take a moment to stop and think about everything. I'm really hoping that this community snaps out of the holier then thou attitude it has. I'm truly hope one day that I'm not handing out one of your own personal wiki's to people to get this problem to stop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Megan_Meier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd

In conclusion I think if this thread continues it should be based on facts and not what it's degraded to. And to those of you who knew about the glitch and said nothing to those abusing it, for shame.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:24 am
Posts: 2
asterixchaos wrote:
TenksYuo wrote:
Verbal abuse is considered a form of battery. Trolling is part of Cyber bullying, which is in fact a crime.


(CITATION NEEDED)

Fred Phelps and his family and their continued protection under the First Amendment might disagree with you.

If you change clothes smack in front of your living room window and someone strolling down the street sees you, you cannot fault them for being on the street. You should have closed the blinds.

If you publicly brag on Facebook that you've committed a crime, and you're arrested for it or lose your job, you cannot fault the audience for paying attention. You should have set your privacy settings.

If you do something in a public chat room that you don't want getting out, you can't fault those who looked to see and saw what you did. You should have shut the blinds/set the privacy/select a private room.

I understand the concern about meeting and interacting with new people--that's what open rooms are for; to do so. When you go out shopping, you dress differently than you might, laying in bed. When you go out for a job interview, you dress differently than you might for either of the others. Some folks don't seem to grasp that just because they're sitting in front of their computer doesn't mean that they're not in a social interaction, and the onus is on the individual, not society, to adjust. If I am a nudist, I still have to put on clothes to go to the mall. If I'm an asshole and I want to play pretend games with other people on the interwebs, I need to act like someboy--it's not on everyone else to just accept me blindly, freely, because I'm such a damn special snowflake.


Citation provided.
Cyber bullying refers to any harassment that occurs via the internet, cell phones or other devices. Communication technology is used to intentionally harm others through hostile behavior such as sending text messages and posting ugly comments on the internet.

The National Crime Prevention Council defines cyber-bullying as “the process of using the Internet, cell phones or other devices to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person.”

Cyber-bullying could be limited to posting rumors or gossips about a person in the internet bringing about hatred in other’s minds; or it may go to the extent of personally identifying victims and publishing materials severely defaming and humiliating them.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/cyber-bullying/

And bringing up the westboro Church? Really? They technically do everything by the bare minimum of the laws. They peacefully assemble. With the word peacefully loosely defined. Also the Westboro church does not pick individuals they protest "certain issues" Also they aren't committing cyber crimes. Please stick to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that people were using the button to cyber bully others as far as I have been reading.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:05 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:14 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Tricity, Poland
Someone mentioned the old chat and no Save there. I agree. But that old chat had no mercy and banned trolls, there were no underline/bold/italic glitch, pm window saved in main window as far I remember, and I dont recall abusing room naming.
The old chat is no more.
Most of us remember times with model/dial internet. Some of us remember time without phone in the house.
Does that mean that we should stop using cellphone and 24h internet access because we managed without it years ago? Definitely no.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:24 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:19 pm
Posts: 45
TenksYuo wrote:
Citation provided.
Cyber bullying refers to any harassment that occurs via the internet, cell phones or other devices. Communication technology is used to intentionally harm others through hostile behavior such as sending text messages and posting ugly comments on the internet.

The National Crime Prevention Council defines cyber-bullying as “the process of using the Internet, cell phones or other devices to send or post text or images intended to hurt or embarrass another person.

Cyber-bullying could be limited to posting rumors or gossips about a person in the internet bringing about hatred in other’s minds; or it may go to the extent of personally identifying victims and publishing materials severely defaming and humiliating them.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/cyber-bullying/

And bringing up the westboro Church? Really? They technically do everything by the bare minimum of the laws. They peacefully assemble. With the word peacefully loosely defined. Also the Westboro church does not pick individuals they protest "certain issues" Also they aren't committing cyber crimes. Please stick to the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that people were using the button to cyber bully others as far as I have been reading.


Really? Did people posting or referring to other people's public chats really bring hatred into others' minds? Did it severely defame or humiliate them? Was it done to intentionally harm other people?

Oh. Maybe not--but we won't know, and the entirety of your premise of this being a legal matter is completely moot as everything you have to say, being hearsay, is inadmissible. While we're embracing the idea of accepting everything anyone says on the forum as gospel, I have several lucrative opportunities involving bridges and lunar real estate, and a bevy of rich Royal African relatives who have recently passed, all of which are providing incredible opportunities
Just.
For.
You!

But seriously, back to the topic before someone tried to make this a big legal issue, logging everything in and out of PM's becomes a massive logistical pain in the ass. People harassing people and failing to follow the codes of conduct already in place need a good smacking with the banhammer, and those who get their panties in a major twist for not having private conversations in private places need a few gentle love taps with the banhammer.

This topic has (at least in terms of this forum's traffic) exploded, violently. It's clear that there are a lot of feels revolving around this particular topic, and now with it being a step or two away from actually getting Godwinned, I would like to posit that we should all take a step back, take a few steadying breaths, untwist our undies, and wait for a response from someone with a red username.

Our bitching here won't accomplish anything; the conversation needs to be with the people who can do things. Not pseudointellectuals and armchair lawyers. (By the way, Battery was defined at common law as "any unlawful touching of the person of another by the aggressor himself, or by a substance put in motion by him.")

I will withhold further comment and troll feedings until such time as we hear something from forum leadership.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 2:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:35 pm
Posts: 2
I am very much for bringing the save feature back. A very enthusiastic hand raise for voting to bring it back if that time comes.

I am tired of missing PM's cause the person who PM'ed me got booted or logged while I wasn't looking at the screen (which sometimes leads to me missing out on important information that is needed to continue rping a character correctly. I.e effects of something being used on my char, or information my char finds out). Since I never know when a friend may be booted, if the conversation is particularly important I would need to keep copying and pasting each post. (I have several friends with very shaky internet connections). I have seen arguments for just copying and pasting the scene, but that doesn't address the lost PM's issue. This is a much bigger issue if I'm multi-tasking while on chats.

Having to go back and copy and paste a scene manually, personally really disrupts the flow of the scene for me. Having to take a moment out of thinking about the scene to go back and highlight all the text then paste to a notepad, and be sure I keep remembering to do so every once in a while and hope that I don't get booted before the next highlight and save process means I have to remind myself to keep track of how much of the scene has passed (which is easier with a scene that doesn't have many people, but gets increasingly difficult when there are many people in the room all posting). All I had to do before was click a button (or refresh) which didn't take my mindset out of the scene. To me it's like playing a game that constantly has load screens (you can still play the game and enjoy it but it really subtracts from truly enjoying the gameplay). Honestly I don't always remember to keep up with it and then I end up finding out that I've lost parts of the scene due to not being able to go far enough back. If that makes me lazy than alright, sure. Doesn't change the usefulness of the save feature to me.

The bad memory issue is also exactly why I like saving scenes. My characters would have a better memory of things than me. I like being able to look back on a past scene when it's referenced during a present scene to make sure my character is recalling things correctly.

Also it sure was nice to not have to log out and log back in to avoid the underline glitch that comes from clicking a link in the main window (or even highlighting the link, copying it then pasting it in a new tab/window, cause that method often left me with the underline glitch still)


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:17 am 
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Posts: 139
I have set it so that the in-window chat log should save up to 1000 posts now (hopefully that won't make the chat too laggy for anyone). I realize that's not as handy as the Save button, but it should suffice for being able to save scenes -- just copy and paste into a Notepad file.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:37 pm
Posts: 4
I'm disappointed. Truly I'm just very disappointed.
I keep hearing 'Verbal assault' this and 'They're trolling me' that. But, if this bug did what I thought it did (And yes, I heard it was possible it but I have honestly never cared what others do enough to bother trying it) all that could happen was someone might save a log from a room they hadn't been in. Yes? This is not assault, trolling or even invasion of privacy since while, no, you might not have known your conversation wouldn't be private, you WERE having it in a public room. Its in bad taste, sure. But if everyone knew it could happen, and apparently everyone did *Eyes the sizable list of posts here* What is so very hard about having your secret convos in a secret room? If I write up a secret document and leave it on a counter, no I didn't hand those secrets over to who ever reads them, but I am completely legally responsible for letting it happen. If I want to keep it secret, I write it behind a locked door, and I lock that door when I leave. Its the same anywhere in life from your job to Facebook, it is exactly the same.
So my point here is, can't all this be fixed with a notice that this bug is out there? Don't talk about things you don't want to be public in a public room or accept the risks for potentially exposing your delicate sensibilities.

AND Most importantly.. if there was abuse, harassment etc stemming from someone doing this.. ban that person. Even a short one a la WOW bans, or a notice of warning if that sort of ban isn't supported by this site. There should have obviously been an easy to save log of said harassment. I can't express in words how much I absolutely loath the concept of punishing everyone because one person can't behave civilly. At best it fails to correct the behavior and at worst it sends the message that individuals will not be punished for their offenses. We incarcerate or rehabilitate criminals. We do not fine the entire community they came from for not stopping them from committing crime.

Now if there wasn't actual personal harassment (which is more what it looks like; just people who got all riled up that their assumed privacy was invaded, which is understandable but not actually criminal).. I have to point out that there are a lot of rumor mills lurking beneath the surface here. Information gets around, even if you think you have been very very clever, it gets out. That, unfortunately, is just the nature of life. Inconveniencing everyone on the site will not solve this problem.
People metagame with information their characters shouldn't have at some point in probably half the scenes I've been in and none of it came from any ill-gotten booty logs. It came from book knowledge players can't keep out of their IC play, from information people write on their own open character sheets, from talking to other players.. etc etc ad nauseum. I was under the impression that the point of an UNmoderated chat was to allow people to be a little less restrictive with their play. And while I often get a bit chaffed by those who play faster and looser with that than I might like, I'd rather hash out my boundaries with those people, like an adult, rather than run crying to a moderator or rage-quitting an otherwise engaging scene when I get rankled.
Frankly I think it might even valid sometimes for the more info-centric characters to have access to a bug like this. The sort of thing that, if players aren't properly concealing their backroom dealings, an ST might perhaps give to a Nos player to exploit ICly. But if you feel differently, when it comes up just tell that person you dispute his ability to know that and move on.


Having said all that, of course its up to Mike to run his site how he wants. And having seen for myself how many people there are in the world who bafflingly can't solve even small problems like adults, I have difficulty blaming him if he'd rather shut the whole thing down rather than listen to whomever's endless complaints or wasting his own time ferreting out the actual offenders (if they exist as I can only think that if there had been a logged record of harassment this would be no issue at all... and come to think of it, paradoxically this will make harassing people that much easier since a troll can now attempt to wipe away his harassing PMs before they get saved.)

In short the tools have always been in place to eliminate this problem. A public awareness seems the easiest solution to mitigate issues while maintaining people's ease of use on an undeniably buggy chat platform. Being able to save more lines of text is nice, but losing PMs every time someone crashes is crippling. Especially for STs who might be running 5-10 little windows at once and typing out full paragraphs into each one. What might be seconds of face to face speech in IRL table top play can be up to 10 minutes of time lost when it has to be composed via text, factoring in that said player might not have yet read several posts before he crashes out. I myself have played on connections that crashed 3-6 times an hour... that tried my patience when I still had the ability to catch up on everything. Now I can only imagine it would be unplayable. So to my mind adding more lines to the main chat window is very akin to putting a band-aide on an amputation site, for a limb that could have been saved.

I do recognize and fully respect Mike's right to moderate the Chat as he wants, God only knows how frustrating it must get to wrangle all us cats and he absolutely deserves a ton of credit for providing this great site wherein we all run amok.
I will still respectfully disagree with this choice as it stands and continue to hope it will be changed in the future.
I'm wholly disappointed that a chat bug which should honestly be nothing more than a minor quirk has been inflated to such a ridiculous level.
And shame on all out there who made this a problem to begin with.

I've spoken my peace, and counted to three.


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 Post subject: Re: PLEASE BRING BACK THE SAVE BUTTON!
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:30 pm
Posts: 139
I will see if I can modify the code to only save what you've seen in the room, and not be able to show what was there before you entered. However, this will probably take a lot of code digging (whoever programmed the Flash chat system made it clear in some ways, and a labyrinth in others), so I can't really say if it is actually even possible, and how long it might take if it is. I could unwind it in a few days time, or it may just not be feasible.

I understand that it sucks when a few bad apples ruin things for everyone, believe me I do. But even in open rooms, people do have a valid expectation of privacy that players/characters not present will not be able to see what happened in that room.


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